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Dreamkeepers Forums - Volume 4: "Descent to the Archives". Discussion Thread! [Spoilers]

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Subscribe to this thread Volume 4: "Descent to the Archives". Discussion Thread! [Spoilers] created by TruthQuest on May 1, 2013

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Digitigraderobo7/16/15 3:51pm
Maybe it's a combination of 3 noises at once? the spring whacking the back of the projectile, the projectile breaking the sound barrier, and the weapon cycling in the next round.

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BryanDimmsdale7/17/15 9:32am
It think this is the actual sound that it is producing, only louder:

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DanWithTheHat7/17/15 2:02pm
I'm asking this question next week to Dave. I wonder if he thought about this before...

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Hobbes7/19/15 10:09am
Alej: Yeah, in real life there is no known material (that I know of, as a physicist) that has a high enough spring constant (k), is small enough to fit in a shell and can be compressed far enough (x) to accelerate a bullet from rest to typical muzzle velocities (v) without permanently warping. k = m * v^2 / x^2

But that's where the fantasy comes in I imagine: they have some sort of special material that can do this. ;-) I just like it when the fantasy elements are consistent...

wildcard, Digitigraderobo: Good call with breaking the sound barrier, that would definitely make a cracking sound after the bullet leaves the barrel. The weapon might also make noise in cycling, that's true. The spring should already be in contact with the bullet in the shell though, so I doubt there would be a "smack" associated with the spring hitting the bullet.

Since we're on this discussion, Dave explains in the appendix of Vol. 4 that the Mk III has a primary barrel that is "slightly too small for the spring to clear", so maybe the spring hits the primary barrel. (As an aside, wouldn't the spring necessarily have a smaller diameter than the bullet in order to push it? I guess they could get around this by bending the very top of the spring across its own diameter (looking down the spring would look like a "theta" symbol), but the springs are not drawn this way in the appendix.)

DanWithTheHat: Thanks! And I do wonder what Dave will say. I also agree about Nabonidus, we simply don't know the extent of his powers.

And is anyone else excited that they now have the coordinates, and a teleportation machine, almost right to the fabled Archives!? It seemed like Lilith was rushed when she was scanning scrolls, but now they can just warp back there and gather up ALL the old info. :-) To be fair, Tendril was there so they'd have to be ready for a fight and if Tendril/Nabonidus is on the ball they'd destroy the cache, but I can hope. Also, Rumour could have simply used his power when they encountered the pile-o-archives to (note that I'm not positive how his power works) set that pile as his retrievable space, and then they could just retrieve all of it when he regains consciousness back at the base.


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DanWithTheHat7/20/15 4:50am
BTW Hobbes, the nerd I am, calculated the spring constant of a spring rifle round assuming the same kinetic energy of a 50 cal. Round (will post the spreadsheet later if I can find it) and two things stuck out at me:

#1 the spring constant is insanely high and the springs would be dangerously compressed

#2 assuming the density of steel, the round still would be moving subsonic because the projectiles are pretty long and would be much heavier than a real world bullet unless they are hollow or an exotic composite material.

Pretty much, the conclusion was that they have some insane materials in the dreamworld that make these guns possible. A real world springer wouldn't be too effective, They would be high powered airsoft guns that would be as dangerous to the user as to the target.

That said, as a mechanical engineer, I do like the thought Dave put into the Troika springer rifle with the tribarrels. It's really wild. I won't think about how that would work in real life though because it would probably make me sad.

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Prometheus7/20/15 9:16am
I was going to comment on this under the "Revelations" thread, but this is more of a speculation.

Anyone wanna take a wiiiild guess at who the corpse is sitting by the unblocked doorway in the Archives book room? Here's a hint: look at the latest V3 page.

If I didn't know better, I'd say our friend unintentionally let the Nab out of his prison. O.O

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BryanDimmsdale7/20/15 6:43pm
@Dan and Hobbes: Um guys, I think I found some amazing discovery here. , As you can see there if you look at the disassembled gun, you'll find that the spring and bullets are extremely long.

Also, and

Don't you think Dave also used these bullets and guns for reference in the making of springer rifles?

Though, I think someone has posted this a while back (I can't remember), so I'll repost it again.

@Prometheus: Um, nah, I think I love some mystery on it for now.

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DanWithTheHat7/20/15 9:02pm
@Pro: We must get the DK goonies on this...

@Bryan: Those actually look longer than the springer rounds on Scinter's desk in vol 3, but the springer rounds have a much larger diameter. He could have very well used that gun as reference for the shock rifles though. I can see some similarities. Its also interesting to see how the sabot in the SPIW protype was discarded in multiple barrels. That is very similar to how the troika springer in V4 discards the spring and spring casing.

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Prometheus7/23/15 9:18pm
Here's a little song that I think would go great as a theme song for the ending of the first act. Sums up the death and horrors of the Silent Centuries, the blood and in-fighting after the SC, and the battle of the heroes of today rather nicely. (Louder Than Words - Les Friction)

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BryanDimmsdale9/4/15 9:20pm
Okay I think it’s time for me to layout my giant theory in volume 4, and it’s all related in Toll Wars and the controversy behind it.

Let’s start off with the family of Bast, especially his family patriarch, Ravat. We all know the Ravat was a former AnSh (Anduruna Shocktrooper) revealed by Scinter in volume 3. We also know now (and been confirmed by Dave) that he was still on duty at the time of the Toll Wars. My tingling hunch is that Ravat knows what happened in it, and he may be one of those people responsible for it. Face it, many have died in there “instantly” for some bizarre reason, and others start wreaking havoc. However it shouldn’t happen if Ravat was there as an AnSh, but the reason why he did it because Nabonidus may already been testing him and he started going into the Dark Side. It was planned all along.

But wait, what’s the relation between that and his familicide? Well, don’t you think his wife was in that event with him, and quickly found out his plan? Or perhaps she noticed that Ravat was acting very strange lately and later confronted him and learned the dark truth? Also let me put it into another aspect; maybe she’s just feigning ignorance all along because she still loved him, and at the same time she might have a relationship with Igrath and Scinter at that time as well. Another thing was that maybe Ravat doesn’t want to kill his family, but he was really forced to by Nabonidus in order to complete the initiation.

And I noticed that it is possible that he start attacking/sabotaging Igrath and Scinter as well after his family’s “death”. He blacklisted Scinter for his products and possibly broke his neck, and then He planned to kill Igrath but instead find his wife at home alone and decided to frame Igrath by killing her. The reason here would be that Nabonidus had given another order to “eliminate” the Troikas before it was even formed. That why Nabonidus was somewhat surprised that the Troikas were still active and ordered Tinsel to investigate at volume 4.

Another note, why was the Toll Wars never fully revealed, I mean it only ended as a controversy and a large rumor, nothing more? It’s a large event; the whole media should have covered it, “Live” even. They should have seen it all, but why? I’m going to point to Viscount Liddo here, he knew something, and it is possible he knew Ravat and his Dark DK group as well, because he allowed it to happen. He may as well a Dark DK by Nabonidus. He covered everything; he order the AnSh and the media to dispose any evidence or risk losing their jobs. He framed someone who’s not even responsible for it.

But this is just a theory and speculation. What do you guys think? Opinions or add-ups?

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Prometheus9/5/15 2:00pm

Oooo, quite a bit of things to analyze here.

Well, allow me to shed my own thoughts on your theory as well as what we know.

1) I firmly believe Ravat was responsible for the stadium massacre and the envoy murders in 1201, resulting in the Toll Wars. If Randy's ignorant allegiance, at his age, to Nabonidus is any indication, we can probably guess Ravat joined Nabonidus at a young age, probably in his early teens. Ravat may have been the kind of murderer who kills people and gets away with it, living day by day like he didn't do anything. So, he would commit all kinds of killings while escaping justice, even being able to become a shock trooper. As a shock assigned to guard duty during the fallguard game in 1201, he would be able to disguise himself, commit the massacre, flee the area, then return to his trooper uniform. With a bit of string-pulling here and there by Nabonidus, the outsiders beyond the city would be blamed for the incident.

When the government sends envoys out to have those blamed to surrender, Ravat would intercept them and kill them out in the wild, then have their bodies dropped off at the gates with a note, pinning more false evidence on the outsiders. Thus, Ravat and Nabonidus succeeded in starting a war against the 'bandits.'

2) These so-called 'bandits' I believe are the first official members of the Troika. In the year 1200, thousands of Andurunans migrated north and founded their own settlement away from Anduruna. They were business owners, merchants and entrepreneurs forced out of business by Anduruna's merciless taxations and other business mandates. A large portion of them may have decided to form a smuggling operation and a military force of their own, dubbed the Troika. This would become the ultimate threat to Nabonidus, who devised a plan to frame the group for mass murder and other crimes. His whole plan may have been to invoke a war against the Troika and the bandits by using the City Guard. When the City Guard returns victorious, he believed the Troika and the rest of the bandits had been wiped out, but he would later discover this not to be the case. At least, for the Troika.

3) While Scinter and Igrath would become key leaders of the Troika movement later on, I don't think they were the original founders. I think Scinter came in to the Troika years after the Toll Wars and helped the group get back on its feet after the battles with the CG drained them of manpower and resources. Scinter's neck injury could have been caused by Igrath, since they were cop and crook back when Igrath was the CG Captain. Or, it could have been Ravat attempting to kill him, since Scinter and his black market operation was also a possible threat to the Nab and his plots. As for Igrath, we don't yet know when and how he and Scinter started working together. For all we know, Igrath may have had a chance to arrest Scinter, but he didn't. Instead, he let him go and decided to partner up with him. That would then put Igrath on the Nab's shit list, so you may be right in suspecting Fae Winters was murdered by Ravat and the blame pinned on Igrath.

4) We don't yet know anything on Ravat's wife. Could be that she found evidence on what happened in the Toll Wars or Ravat's involvement with Nabonidus. Or, she may have harbored Igrath at one point during his run from the law. In either case, she may have been seen as a major liability for Ravat, so he either got rid of her or was ordered to by Nabonidus. Considering he is a pretty cold-hearted killer and was probably like that before the story began, I don't think he had a problem with killing his own family.

5) You raise a good point about Viscount Liddo. He may have been a Dark himself and helped orchestrate the Toll Wars by Nabonidus's order.

6) As for the Toll Wars itself, it may not have been a war, but rather a massacre. According to the history text, the thousands of people who left were just civilians. Unarmed, untrained civilians. And, an army of heavily-armed troops were sent out into the Dunes to track them down and kill them under the suspicion that these people were responsible for all the killings. Now, would you really want an official account of unarmed people getting slaughtered by your own troops to go public? Of course not. So, everything was classified and the troops were to remain silent in order to keep a nationwide uproar from occuring. No live broadcasts, no recounts from the soldiers, nothing is allowed to be seen or heard about the conflict.

That's my two-cents worth. ^^;

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BryanDimmsdale9/6/15 6:51am
@Prometheus: I'll give you two large cookies for that, well done to you, sir! :)

That fits perfectly actually, and I want to add more, we haven't heard of Nainso talking about this, and I'm sure he knows it too; I kinda know that he is one of the key leaders of Troikas as well.

Also, I was still wondering if Bast was still with Ravat or he's now in the orphanage in the prelude. But either way I think he still experiences domestic violence because he said something about "winning".

I'm worried and at the same time proud for Randy who got his powers, now we can have some "time stop" fan-service...whoops. XD

Got alot of speculation at the "Silent Centuries" part.

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Kirito9/6/15 11:23am
@BryanDimmsdale @Prometheus;

A lot of ground covered here. Very nice!

1. I also agree that Ravat was most likely responsible for the stadium massacre and the envoy murders that spurred the Toll wars. I'm not so sure in regards to when Ravat became a dark dreamkeeper. Although it is very likely that he joined Nabonidus as a teen/young adult. It also could be likely that Nabonidus saw an excellent opportunity to make some moves with Ravat's position in the AnST. This would allow for the Fallguard Massacre; although the prospect of murdering so many people and slipping away doesn't seem likely to me. His power spreads from himself to those around him. That means it would be obvious who was doing it in addition to the presence of his halo. Nonetheless I'm still leaning towards Ravat being the murderer. Again, because this facilitated the Toll Wars, he indeed probably intercepted the envoy and pinned the "bandits".

2. The theory about bandits holds less water to me. Why would the northern civilization need a military force? I do have some doubts of my own because of obviously stated intense skirmishes during the Toll Wars. I shall withhold judgment on this matter as of now.

3. Again, the theory that Scinter and Igrath were not founders doesn't seem likely to me. Troika calls upon the number three, so it would be ideal for Scinter, Igrath, and Nainso to be the founders. This would make sense because with funding from Nainso and the profits from Scinter's mark, the Troika would have a huge foothold in the Andurunian economy. In regards to Scinter's neck injury, I don't think that Igrath was involved in this. Being a CG captain, I highly doubt he would injure someone's neck so severely. Equally, I don't think it was broken either do to the obvious neurological consequences that would befall him. As he still has full use of his arms, legs, and thought process, this does not seem to be the case. Moving on, Fae Winter's murder seems highly likely to be Ravat's doing, as it would be easy to blame a high ranking captain as Igrath was.

4. Ravat's wife's murder does intrigue me. You may be correct in that she was starting to pull back the veil surrounding Ravat, but how she was killed makes me have doubts. She was obviously tortured; tied to a chair and slowly lacerated until she bled to death. Although Ravat may just be that sadistic to kill his wife in this fashion, it could also point to the fact that she knew something important. What that is, I don't know, but food for thought. Ravat also doesn't seem to be the one to cut Bast. It looks like the mother cut his neck to prevent him from being killed by Ravat. I infer this from the dialogue, however, so that's still wide open.

5. I don't think Liddo is a Dark Dreamkeeper. Reading through the history, it looks to me like he was a desperate politician that was manipulated by Nabonidus. It would make sense for him to cover up the Toll Wars to prevent massive criticism from the public. In addition, his banning of powers and weapons points to either him facilitating a nightmare takeover or doing anything possible to restore some form of peace and thus keep him in office.

6. I don't agree with you here. I believe that the Toll wars were, in fact, a war. The history text states: "With their exclusive access to manufactured springer rifles and other advanced gear, there is an expectation of an easy victory for city forces. However, unexpectedly intense skirmishing in the dunes north of the city results in shipments of wounded soldiers home, and emergency reinforcements."(TollWars, 1202 A.D.). Going back to your theory about the Troika, this would point to them being the ones to fight back. This is solidified as in V4 the Troika base is HQ'd in the Diony Desert. Perhaps the Troika and northern civilization are two separate entities? Nonetheless, the Toll war was definitely not a slaughter, as heavy fighting is documented. The reason why the accounts of the war was classified was because they lost. Obviously, the Troika is still alive and well so they were not wiped out in the Toll Wars. This leads me to believe that Anduruna lost the war. Obviously they have no qualms about keeping the public in the dark about things, so why would a lost war be any different?

Anyway, that's my spin on things.

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BryanDimmsdale9/9/15 6:17pm
@Prometheus, @Kirito

Wohoo, We're on FIRE!

Ahem, so

1. We have plausible clues and evidences that Ravat was behind the Massacre. Overall, I further believe that, and given by your information guys, Nabonidus planned all this, and I wholeheartedly agree. Though, we haven't found out how "specific" their death was, that's what I wanna find out. And we are sure that he was recruited at a young age. But yeah, I kinda agree and disagree here; it may be possible that only a specific few have seen him do this, and it may be his wife.

2. Don't you think that they belong to the Serapis race? I mean, there's no possible recorded DK living outside Anduruna, besides them, right? Although, I might believe with Prometheus that it was plausible that there's the first "resistance" that came into Anduruna, but the title "Troika" was coined later when they were found by Igrath, Scinter, and Nainso. And yes, eventually they will become a threat to Nabonidus.

3. The three may be founders, but I believe that the merchants or "mercenaries" were operating way before at the time of 1200 AD. Also, I think that Scinter wears that brace in order to hold the weight of his head because it's too big and long? I was also thinking that is it possible that Ravat was under Igrath's command? And that's why he knew who he is, where he lives, and killed his wife?

4. Yeah, it really tickles my brain. I think she has more secrets than we know. We never even got her name. I wanna ask Dave about that, but it would be a minor spoiler for everybody, especially the ones who didn't read vol 4. Now I really want to find out more about her, she seems an interesting character. How did they met? Actually the real questions is, HOW DID THEY FELL IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER?

5. The question is, what was Viscount Liddo doing at that time before the toll wars? His actions are quite peculiar, despite being desperate. If we were to follow you, Kirito, he banned the powers and weapons because he knew that someone (might be Ravat) started the war by using his/her powers and it might happen. But if I were to agree with Prometheus, he may have used the Fallguard as a setup and predicted the Toll Wars, then ban the powers and weapons in order for the nightmares to slowly takeover, bit by bit. I curious on how he looks like.

6. Then it actually solidifies further the evidence that the "resistance" was already there in the first place. And the reason why the AnST loss in the first place was because of the use Guerrilla Tactics and Warfare by the resistance. It also lead me to believe that they might be the same to the merchants from the North. But either way, they kept it classified.

I gave myself a cookie! Yum :3

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DanWithTheHat9/12/15 4:42pm
in response to your statements:

2. I don't think the 'bandits" in the toll wars were Serapeans. They lived far outside Anduruna for one and haven't been close to Anduruna for literally ages. The history section is pretty clear the bandits are the thousands of people who left in protest.

3 and 6. They did have almost 2 years to prepare for war if they went out there in 1200 AD. That is more than enough time to get a well trained and equipped resistance together. Since they were merchants and traders, I'm sure they knew where to get the resources required to equip themselves as well. I can't be so sure there were people out there already just yet.

Also, on the subject of the troika starting with the resistance. Scinter did get out of jail right before the wars started. He could have very well been apart of that resistance. Igrath though was a soldier. Could he have met Scinter in one of those battles?

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