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Dreamkeepers Forums - Human and DK Cloning, and its Consequences

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Subscribe to this thread Human and DK Cloning, and its Consequences created by Asora on August 29, 2014

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Asora8/29/14 5:35pm
Ever since I learned about cloning, I have been some-what, "interested", should I say, in the idea of making an identical being from their counterpart, and this concept is in fact real. But if you haven't learned it yet, it turns out that even though there is obviously successful tests of cloning on other animals such as dogs, cats, mice, rats, sheep, and even horses, yet it is considered by the U.N. (United Nations), that human cloning is considered to be "a crime against humanity".

Now, before you start commenting on how the hell is cloning a human being a crime against humanity, even though we clone other animals against there will, I was in your position as well. But when you start going deeper into why is it a major crime, you start to realize the dark and, some what, "sinister" things and consequences of cloning a human.

Now, I don't want to go way overboard into this topic, okay? I just want to hear you're guys opinions on this kind of stuff.

Imagine this; Humanity has grown over the last few thousand years going from making fire from stick and stone, to making bombs that can cause explosions to be the half the size of South Jersey and can reach temperatures as high as the surface of the sun. Now imagine making life, life from a single cell, that came from your body. Duplicate it, and follow the procedures into making a real life size clone of your self. After you are done, what do you do? Will you make it become your servant? Will you order it to have a regular life like anyone else? Or will you destroy it?

What if that clone has a mind of its own? Where it can call it's own decisions and interact with others. What if it had the mind of you?

Cloning a human being that acts like its own will cause outcomes that are almost, if not, completely unpredictable. Its could result it doing good decisions and living the rest of its life as a "normal" human, or it can cause wide spread chaos. Humans use of technology nowadays are using it as there advantage. Using it in a widespread of outcomes and decisions, such as communication, engineering, health, science, and unfortinually, war.

I myself, believe in God. I personally think God gave us humans the ability to create great things. Things that are so unbelievable, that it will make our ancestors think we are gods our selves. God also gave us the ability of free will also, which is one of, if not, our greatest gift. But making the decision to have the technology, power, and free will to create life, even life that is similar of our own race? That sounds unbelievable.

To me, I think the U.N. made the right decision to make human cloning a crime against humanity. I also personally think that humans are not ready to begin and handle the risks and consequences of human cloning.

Now, about DK cloning however.

It has brought to my attention that if the Anduruna government has serious policies and rules on using powers and having illegal firearms in there city, then wouldn't they have crimes against dreamkeepers, that are similar to ours?

If you think cloning in the DK world is not possible, even though dreamkeepers have the ability to create cities that are hundreds of miles long, followed by building structures that are a thousand floors tall, including them making teleportation devices, then how do you explain this?

https://e621.net/post/show/440222/2014-backpack-cat-clone-clothing-david_lillie-drea

Yep, thats right, thats a picture of a female gray feline crusader who accidentally discovered a device that can copy ones DNA and make it into a full grown copy of themselves, which did the same exact thing to her. She is in deep shit now.

Of course the commission is not canon, but what if it is truly possible in the DK world? That dreamkeepers who have access to this can duplicate themselves and others? How would the DK race react and deal with this?

Now, how will the clone react and interact with other beings and its surroundings? In the pic that I showed you, you can see that the crusader and her clone both react in shock. This should indicate that the clone could have a sense of feeling and awareness. If it does have that, then does it have other senses? Like taste, touch, feel, hear, and others? If so, does it have any memory of her original self? If yes, then can she access her power? Thats the one that puzzles me the most.

Dave explained to me on one of the Thursday chats, to the best I can explain, that a dreamkeeper's power is personally a supernatural gift, that comes from ones own body and mixes in with there personality. He also explained that a DK's power can't be taken away permanently, but it can be taken away or copied shortly. If that is the case, then maybe the cloning machine that was activated by the crusader somehow not only copied her DNA, but also copied her memories and her power to make a full grown healthy copy of herself.

Anyways, I would like to know what you guys think about human and DK cloning, and its consequences. I will see you later, and by the way, science can do some crazy shit. In other words:

DAMN NATURE, YOU SCARY!!!!








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MobileCrusader8/30/14 10:08am
I have always viewed the legislation regarding cloning as similar to the legislation issues surrounding Artificial Intelligence. The argument could be made that one of the generated beings is not human/alive and thus does not deserve basic human rights. I myself do not agree with this stance. If it has the capacity for intelligence, it deserves the right to choose its own path, like a child.

I do not see a problem with cloning, but I do think it is unnecessary and to be avoided.

Also, regarding the point you made toward how clones could be able to choose: if it has the mental capacity to understand a situation, form rational thought, and act out of self interest, why should it not be allowed to choose? Don't we risk unpredictable behavior literally every time a human is born? I don't see the issue you are trying to set the foundation for.


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Xeverusmiller8/30/14 1:22pm
The only problem that I see with human cloning is that the moment they are 'made', no matter how, they are human. Thus, as someone with sentience, the world must automatically grant them rights that the 'original' one has. Especially the right to choose and consent.

That and the fact that the world is already having problems with population and starvation so cloning just for the sake of cloning isn't a valid excuse for it to be used.


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MobileCrusader8/30/14 2:01pm
Extremely valid point.

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Asora8/30/14 6:38pm
I agree to your guys opinions. I think that a clone that is created by what our scientist use these days and under right influence, should in fact have the full rights like any one else does. But if it is created in a style like in the pic that I showed you, only God knows what would happen. But what I am trying to do is make a point with this topic about the thought of a human or DK clone existing in there world, how it would it use it's thoughts and actions on others and it's surroundings, and what would the rest or the world react to this.

That's basically all I have to say in summarization. But about Xeverusmiller's statement on overpopulation. I saw one of Vsause's videos a while back on Youtube, don't know which one, but in one part, it explained that if every single human that is alive right now was put in one spot, it wouldn't even fill up half of the Grand Canyon. Seriously though, even though it might sound ridiculous, it might actually be true.

Think about it. If you get the average human, multiply it by 7-8 Billion, put all those people in one space, and compare it to the Earth, well, you basically get the point.






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Xeverusmiller8/31/14 11:45am
I'm not talking about the problem of overpopulation as a matter of 'number of humans' and 'space', rather, I'm talking about the problem about how in the world are we going to sustain that said population.

It doesn't matter if there's enough space in the world for some ten billion people. Space isn't limited just like what you said about the grand canyon, the problem is that our resources are limited.

I know we're getting off topic but that's what I've been meaning to say. Having a big family isn't all that bad, but we must remember that we have to feed them, and as much as I want to say that there's plenty of food to go around... In essence, there isn't. It all has to be paid for, if there wasn't then we don't have to rely on charity or food stubs to help the financially-incapacitated get meals.

This goes even worse for third-world countries where a single meal has to be shared by more than three people, for the entire day. So yes, that's the point that I'm trying to convey about overpopulation.

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ZycantAlpha8/31/14 11:52am
That's true. Another thing to keep in mind has to do with how the clone would react to being in the situation it's in (which I think was listed in the initial question). Assuming the clone is "good" (i.e.: capable of individual/creative/rational thought), it would likely figure out that it is a clone. If that clone believes in "divine purpose" or the original did, that would probably cause quite a bit of stress or invoke some sense of ennui in the clone. On second thought that could happen with the original too.

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GodofVelcro8/31/14 12:38pm
If I recall, cloning someone into the age they are currently at is impossible, at least with any technology currently theorized. Even in Star Wars they had to raise clones from artificial wombs (Great reference I know). With that said, the memories and feelings of the clonee will not be transferred over, as (correct me if I'm wrong) those are just electrical signals formed within the brain. It might be possible to clone a full body, but the mind would be as a child's.

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Asora8/31/14 1:24pm
*Updated - August 31, 2014 - 7:20 P.M. U.S. East Coast*

@Xeverusmiller

Oh! You where talking about limited resources towards a large population, my mistake! Terribley sorry about misunderstanding your statement. Again, sorry.

@ZycantAlpha

That could be possible. Good theory though.

@GodofVelcro

I am not sure about your statement Velcro. I don't know if it counts or not to determine a clones age simply by the way it was created. If it was created by the method our scientists use today, I guess you could put the regular age method in there. But if the clone was created in a method like in the picture or in a Star Wars way, I am not sure if you could count the regular age method we humans put in. In the pic, it showed a clone who almost insantly spawned in and looked exactly like her orignal, while in the Star Wars version, it explained that the clones are desgined to grow from toddlers to full grown healthy men in a matter of a few days, weeks, or months.

Also, as for the intelligence. Once again, they explained in Star Wars that the clones DNA came from a bounty hunter who voluntered into transferring his DNA to make the clones. But instead of the clones having the same memories as the bounty, the creators programmed the clones to make memories of there own, have free will, and learn things very quickly. In the picture however, I don't even know if the clone has the same functions and memories as her orignal or not.

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FoxPhantom8/31/14 3:20pm
Quick question, not exactly sure how cloning can actually work.

Does cloning involve a surrogate mother?
Because I was wondering how it's possible to create a clone, and not only that, but would the clone have a shorter live span?

The other question is that wouldn't the clone dreamkeeper be playing the same rules as the person they guard, like a shortened life span?


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Asora8/31/14 4:43pm
That's....a very valid point there FoxPhantom. Here are your answers, from what I have researched on the Internet. Cause we all know the Internet is awesome for searching.

Answer One: Reproductive cloning generally uses "somatic cell nuclear transfer" (SCNT) to create animals that are genetically identical. This process entails the transfer of a nucleus from a donor adult cell (somatic cell) to an egg from which the nucleus has been removed, or to a cell from a blastocyst from which the nucleus has been removed. If the egg begins to divide normally it is transferred into the uterus of the surrogate mother. Such clones are not strictly identical since the somatic cells may contain mutations in their nuclear DNA. Additionally, the mitochondria in the cytoplasm also contains DNA and during SCNT this mitochondrial DNA is wholly from the cytoplasmic donor's egg, thus the mitochondrial genome is not the same as that of the nucleus donor cell from which it was produced. This may have important implications for cross-species nuclear transfer in which nuclear-mitochondrial incompatibilities may lead to death.

Artificial embryo splitting or embryo twinning, a technique that creates monozygotic twins from a single embryo, is not considered in the same fashion as other methods of cloning. During that procedure, an donor embryo is split in two distinct embryos, that can then be transferred via embryo transfer. It is optimally performed at the 6- to 8-cell stage, where it can be used as an expansion of IVF to increase the number of available embryos. If both embryos are successful, it gives rise to monozygotic (identical) twins.

Answer Two: After an eight-year project involving the use of a pioneering cloning technique, Japanese researchers created 25 generations of healthy cloned mice with normal lifespans, demonstrating that clones are not intrinsically shorter-lived than naturally born animals.

Answer Three: Yes. Due to the explanation given for Dreamkeepers, it said that every living thing has a DK, so it is highly possible that if a human creates a clone of his or her self, then basically it would play the same role in the DK world. Also, it depends if the clone is long living or not because if one dies, the other dies as well.

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Asora10/4/14 12:04pm
Okay guys, I got a some pretty good info on a theory that involves some huge proportions that relate to Human and DK cloning.

Let's go straight to the topic.

The theory is the possibility that Mace/Whip and the twins are two batches of Dreamkeeper humongouli that were created for a specific purpose, or purposes.

I am not kidding.

Now, think about this for a minute. Now, this is the moment you realize that shit just got real.

When you put this theory in perspective, we actually don't know much about Mace/Whip, and the Twins backgrounds. Of course we know what they have been doing in the prelude, but what I mean is that what have they been doing BEFORE the prelude.So far actually we don't even know much about there family background, images of their family, or not even a single mention about them.

We only know that Mace n' Whip are orphans at a run-down orphanage and have no money but at least have an education. Even with these problems, they still try to have fun and help others in need.

But in the twins case however, they seem to be the average DK at first and seem to be in a family that is very rich, due to the fact that they can afford the money to go to a private school in the Sabbaton Towers. Jeneviv is the smart, nice, and quiet one that will take revenge when someone messes with her, her sister, or her friends (like with Lilith's case), but for Kalei, she is a very energetic, crazy type (like Namah).

So it looks like the four are having the usual and trying to get pass the basic obstacles in there early lives. Right?

Bitch, HELL TO THE NO! THIS IS FUCKING DREAMKEEPERS! WHAT YOU EXPECT?

But this is were we dig deeper.

Now, we all know what happened to Jeneviv in the beginning of Vol. 1 (Screw you Scuttler). But after that, things get a little weird. We see Kalei in the background were Mace and Whip are heading to the market, wearing what seems to be bandages covering her body. But hears the thing. We later see her in Grunn's "Secret Room" in Vol. 3 were she appears in some type of "purple mist" floating around her. Not only that, but she also appears to be extremely quiet and has some-what lost or loosing her ability to physical control her body or her bodies balance when she arrives with Grunn on the tele-pad in one of the Troika's secret bases. This is completely unlike her compared to her persinalilty and actions in the prelude.

It seems like Kalei is in some sort of "mental state" were she is in state of spiritual mind and is in lost of most of her power with her physical body, like her mind is somewhere else, were she can't be able to speak in the real world, but can only move little of her body with help of someone else at times. It is also like her mind is somewhere else, were she can still hear and see others, but can't talk to them. It's like she, herself, is communicating with someone or something else in the spiritual realm - someone like - Jeneviv.

O-O

Damn, that's creepy.

Speaking of Jeneviv, why in bloody blazes have the nightmares picked Jeneviv, instead of someone else in the Dream world?

Now, it is not likely that some-how, some-where, at some-time, the nightmares happened to pick Jeneviv as there person to sacrifice for reviving Lord Void, who happens to have contact with the main characters, it doesn't add up. The odds of that being the answer to why she was sacrificed is not likely. There has to be another, more highly reasonable, answer.

Before I go to the major conclusion, lets go to Mace n' Whips side of the story now.

Like I said before, Mace n' Whip are just minding their own business in the prelude and in the beginning of the GNS (Vol. 1), leading to the low possibility of them getting involved of crazy shit happening to them.

But out of all of the odds, one night, their best friend, Paige, gets brutally murdered for unknown reasons and not only get falsely accused by Law Enforcement, but also get targeted in a manhunt by an unknown enemy beyond their knowledge by a person named "Nabonidus" who happens to be the current leader of the Nightmare/Dark DK league.

They are currently in deep shit now. But why them? Why out of all of the thousands, upon millions of DK's around the world, they happen to be in the middle of a crisis that might lead to the end of days? And why are both the boys and the twins cases some-what similar?

Well, like I said before. Chances are, they might be genetically artificial DK clones made by the Anduruna Government, or by a secret society that nobody outside of them knows about, who made the four teens for a specific purpose, or purposes that each one was specifically designed to accomplish. A purpose or a number of purposes that might either lead to outcomes that are great and wonderful things, or by leading every single living being on the planet to their end, all in an instant.

That could be very possible, and that might be the reason why Mace and Whip don't remember there parents, because he might have NO BIOLOGICAL OR FOSTER PARENTS; Mace could be the equivalent of a lab made artificial human in our world, and together with Whip, his DNA-like brother, I have a feeling that Grunn has to know this as well as any other, since he's a Troika member and "raised" the boys afterall. I know it sounds crazy, I mean, we don't know if our own government really is creating an artificial human behind our backs; it's been proven in Nat Geo, somewhat. More the less that this is a more likely theory.

For the Twins however, they may have the same case that they are artificial clones as well. The difference, I think, is that they may have foster parents who adopted them and raise them as their own. But this should be explained further in their threads, and hopefully, in the preludes and the GNS also.

Before you go, I would like to credit BryanDymmsdale, for giving me this awesome theory and suggesting me to post something similar to the theory he posted on the Mace thread, and I would also like to credit MobileCrusader too, for starting the theory in the beginning.

Thank you for reading and tell me what you guys think. PEACE! :D

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BryanDimmsdale10/24/14 5:35am
I don't know WHY this isn't on the top, Asora's updated posted is SO GOOD. I like your idea man, (and of course, thanks for the referencing). I mean, these are the theories we've been looking for and I think this should be posted on Mace's and the Twins thread as well.

So in short, I'm gonna gives this a BUMP for everyone to look at what Asora posted, and you guys might have ideas on your own.

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Asora11/4/14 9:39am
XD Thanks for the compliment Byran!

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